David Henry is a lively and vocal defender of the visual arts -- just what we need right now. He cares about art and artists, and especially about integrating practicing artists into museums and as educators in community settings.

He has been involved in the arts -- first as a photographer and now as an museum educator-- for 25 years. Before his work at the RISD Museum, he was at the well-known Walker Art Center in Minneapolis for seven years.

Thom Swiss: Good morning, David. As many Popmatters readers will know, the Rhode Island School of Design (RISD) is one of the best art schools in the country. And among the most famous, as well.

I suppose that puts a special pressure on the museum. Can you say a little about that and how the museum responds to the fame, philosophy, and goals of the college itself?

David Henry: I'm not sure readers will recognize RISD by its Museum, but other than the Art Institute of Chicago, I am not aware of another institution where a museum with an internationally recognized collection and a first-rate art school are so closely aligned.

The notion that artists and designers need to study masterworks of art as part of their education led to the formation of many museums in this country. We are one of the few where that idea continues to be an active part of the Museum's mission and the school's pedagogy.

For those who are unaware of the Museum, we have a collection of about 80,000 objects in seven departments including Ancient Art, Contemporary art, and, as is fitting for an art and design school, costumes, textiles and decorative arts.

In addition to our art resources, as the leading art museum in Rhode Island, we have an active education program for school children, families, and adults. One area that distinguishes our education program is the very active use we make of artists. We have artists on staff and regularly bring in artists in residence to work in and with some of the diverse and vibrant communities in the region.

TS: What's the relationship between the school and the museum like?

DH: Well, it is not always an easy one. Students actively question the relevance of studying the work of old masters or art from other cultures. I'm sure this has been an issue ever since Marcel Duchamp challenged 19th century notions of art. and is probably the reason many of those early art school/museum unions have faded. I imagine music education faces a similar problem. Is there a value to having one's musical points of reference include Scott Joplin and Janis Joplin along with your contemporaries?

TS: I want to talk a little bit about art in general before we talk about the role of art education, which is your expertise, of course. Why should those of us who are not artists care about the visual arts?

DH: There are both practical and philosophic reasons.

As a species we communicate a great deal of information visually. In some cases it would take an extensive amount of words to describe simple information Š think of a road sign-and in others, no amount of words could ever convey the same information - think of Elian Gonzalez being captured/freed by government agents. We are bombarded with images in our daily lives as never before. (In medieval Europe, people were only able to see representations - a painting, a stained glass window or sculpture when they were able to get to a church.) Visual images have always been a language used to promote power and points of view. So, on a practical level, we should want to participate as makers and readers of visual images and art is the place where visual language is most closely studied.

On a more philosophical level, visual art is much more than design. Artists have historically played an enormous role as cultural commentators -- the notion of a pop culture seemed to rise simultaneously in music and art. (I'm not sure this 'zine would be called popmatters without Andy Warhol.) Art helps us to understand our selves, and others. It takes us to places we may never visit, or it can uncover our deepest hopes and fears. We connect to other cultures, past and present, through the visual arts. A big part of the legacy we leave behind will be our visual art.

Finally, there is a skill I associate with the visual arts that is not spoken of often. It is a form of critical thinking. At every step of the way an art work is the result of choice. The artist chooses one material over another, one color over another, one subject over another. The museum or gallery chooses one work over another. The viewer/critic chooses one criteria over another.

TS: You are talking about the importance of making judgments? About that troublesome word "value"?

DH: Yes. Understanding the process by which one can make informed judgements rather than simply reacting, should be a part of everyone's life and I don't know of another discipline that highlights this process as much as aesthetics. I can assure you that our environment would look different if people paid more attention to the visual arts and the choices we make in building our visual environment.

One of the reasons this country is ambivalent about art is our historic attitude towards elitism. Historically, art in western culture has been a bastion for the elite. Even the idea of an informed judgement is a form of elitism. However, many of us who work in museums today are committed to providing elite experiences for everyone. I do believe in excellence and quality while recognizing that different criteria can be used to identify excellence. But I would hope that we can all identify for ourselves our personal criteria for excellence.

It is not enough to say "I don't know much about art, but I know what I like." Tell me why you like what you like. Maybe it's color, maybe it's a certain subject matter, maybe it is something that makes you think. Whatever, I think we are all better off the more we talk, think, and look.

TS: I was thinking today that so far I've not heard either presidential candidate from the major parties say a word about art -- should they? And what should they be telling us?

DH: Unless they have a passion for art, they should probably steer clear. I'm sure if you contacted their campaigns they would send you a position paper on the National Endowment for the Arts, but it won't come up too often in their stump speeches. And anyway, I'm not sure I really want Tipper Gore doing for the visual arts what she did for music.

TS: Many readers will be familiar in general with the art controversy last year in New York. I'm thinking of "Sensation," a museum show that resulted in a big fight -- and, finally, the mayor's attempt to de-fund the museum. What's your take on the ongoing public battles over art? Does any good ever come out of these skirmishes?

DH: Well, I can point to a few positive results of that particular battle. First, a lot of people went to see some very lively art. It has certainly been a current in art over the past 100 years that one of the roles of art is to challenge us - to present new ideas and ways of looking at the world. It should not be surprising that those with a stake in old ways of seeing the world may not embrace the new. But I am heartened that so many people supported Sensation by attending the show.

I think it is also positive that museums, funders, and government look realistically at our current support systems. In earlier art battles the role of government to support art was challenged and has been greatly diminished because of them. Many said, "It's ok for artists to do whatever they want but not on tax payers dollars." So now museums are forced to rely on the private sector and the marketplace. Sensation gave us a glimpse of where that will lead. Donors with ulterior motives, new marketing techniques, and art that has to battle the clutter of a sound bite culture. IÕm not sure we have a visual equivalent of the sound bite yet but it is coming. Maybe it is just a spot.

What is sad to me is that so little of the current public discourse is about art. Much has been said about Chris Offili's art work of Mary. But I can assure you, words do not do it justice and often were used to negate it. Yes, he uses elephant dung but he does not "smear" it -- and to say so is to do just that. I don't think people in this country distinguish well between "illustration" and "art."

Millions have seen reproductions of that work. But how many have spent more than a few seconds poring over the canvas at the dots of paint, the bead work, moved their eyes up and down to take in the whole thing, or asked why someone would apply elephant dung with such precision and care? How many of us take the time to ask ourselves about the simultaneous existence of the sacred and profane within us? The work has a presence and a beauty that does not come across in reproduction or words. The fact that this is not appreciated in the US and we can just talk about it in 25 words of content description is evidence of how poor the art education is in this country.

I know many great art teachers, however, the system they are asked to work in is deplorable. From the training they get, to the facilities and supplies they are given, to the number of students they are expected to teach - it is all evidence of the lack of value we place on art. And unfortunately, with all the talk of education reform that the presidential candidates do speak of, little is focused on art education.

TS: How do you see your role as an art educator? Who are you educating, anyway, and how?

DH: Well, I work in an art museum - not in a classroom, and as such we are more interested in aesthetics, history, and appreciation than studio skills. Museums also tend to receive a significant portion of the country's limited art funding and as such I think we have a very real advocacy role. Not necessarily for one kind of art or another, but for art in general.

As to who we are educating, it's anyone who shows an interest. People go to museums by choice -- not because it is required. But there is no one who is not welcome. We have programs for families with young children and programs for senior citizens. Of course, at RISD we do a lot for artists. We program for those with extensive experience in the arts and for those with little or none. I happen to be particularly interested in those whose education has not exposed them to art. We do a lot with schools and families, and a lot of our work is done in communities beyond the walls of the museum.

One of the benefits of some of the culture wars of the past decade has been a sort of reality check in the art world and the realization that art cannot exist in a vacuum. A number of artists, drawing on different artistic traditions, have committed themselves to working with communities and bringing new voices into the conversation about artistic criteria, quality, and the market structure in which museums, galleries, collectors, and artists must work. I have been involved in a program called Art ConText (www.risd.edu/artcontext) with the Providence Public Library. We bring established and successful artists into library branches throughout the city where they work with a community to create a new work of art.

To date, artists have worked with groups such as high school girls, immigrant adults, diabetics, and an elementary school. In addition, they mentor RISD students who work side by side and contribute in very real ways to the finished art works. I find that the interaction between different communities, artists, RISD students and the museum has made us all more respectful and understanding of each other. I hope that I am facilitating art's ability to help us understand each other, not just across the ages, but across our neighborhoods.

TS: If you had to pick a couple of pieces from the RISD Museum that would make it worth travelling to Providence to see, what might those be? I know it's a big museum! How about a couple of pieces pre-20th century?

DH: That's a hard one... we have over 80,000 works but here are a few of my favorites. We have a painting by Paul Gauguin, not in the style for which he is known (the Tahitian works) but an early impressionist view of a village in southern France. It hangs right next to an impressionist view by Camille Pissaro of the same village. In fact, Gauguin studied with Pissaro in that village and one can just imagine student and teacher setting up their easels side by side, and the kinds of conversations they might have had while painting.

Another favorite of mine is a ceramic paint box. The lid (which has a handle in the shape of a hedgehog) slides open to reveal a compartment for water and brushes and little wells that still have dried pigment in them. It is from Egypt and is over 3000 years old! It reminds me of how long people have been making art and how integral it is to all cultures.

Finally, we have a terra cotta fragment of a larger sculpture from the Etruscan culture which thrived in Italy about 2500 years ago. It is a hand, the size of child's holding a dove. There is something so delicate about it. Every time I look at it my heart swells with emotion. The artist was so observant and rendered it with such grace. It is filled with humanity.

TS: Just curious: can you name some of your own favorite contemporary artists and tell us why they matter? Readers of this interview might find some new things out there by following a trail... Can you provide us with one?

DH: As I mentioned, I am interested in a number of artists whose work gives voice to a larger community and I have had the great pleasure of working with many of them.

Edgar Heap of Birds from Oklahoma integrates public signage and visuals to draw attention to the living history of Native Americans in this country. Pepón Osorio has given credibility to a very ornate and baroque aesthetic associated with Latin American culture. (www.peponosorio.com) Rebecca Belmore from Toronto is both a performance and installation artist whose work has drawn attention to the conditions facing First Nations Peoples in Canada, illegal immigrants in Southern California and the environment. A couple of artists who I think are very thoughtful are Ernesto Pujol and Lynne Yamamoto. Right now, I am working with an artist named Shimon Attie whose work transforms the experience of "loss" into something that is often dreamlike and beautiful.

On a more personal level I see the world differently because of Bruce Nauman. The best art work I've seen in the past year was by Janet Cardiff at the Carnegie International. It was a prerecorded audio and video tour that you took through the stacks of the Library. The displacement you felt from what you saw and heard on the hand held video camera and the "real" world that you walked through was exhilarating.

TS: Finally, David, can you connect the cultural buzzword, "globalization," to the specifics of museum life and art education these days?

DH: I'm not sure I'm best to do this. Perhaps you should speak with someone at the Guggenheim.

TS: Thanks for talking with us. Last favor: Can you give us a URL that will get us to the RISD museum? And, perhaps, a few other art-related sites we should know about?

DH: www.risd.edu will get you to the school and it should be no problem to find the museum from there. www.artnet.com is packed with useful links (including to many many museums), a magazine,and gallery and artist information. www.artsconnected.org is a site set up by the Walker Art Center and the Minneapolis Institute of Art that has lots of great educational material on it.

Adaweb.walkerart.org is an interesting collaboration between a cutting edge artist-run web site and a museum and will be interesting to see how it progresses. Rhizone.org is a good way to keep up to date on digital culture.